by Ulrich Irnich & Markus Kuckertz

Shownotes

Folge #15 behandelt das Thema „Leadership is tricky“ – also um die Herausforderungen, denen man sich stellen muss, um gut zu führen. Zu Gast haben wir Erick Ocasio, Direktor für Programme, Politik und Projekte sowie Leiter der Unternehmensarchitektur bei der US Army in Wiesbaden und langjähriger Host des Podcast „Leadership is tricky“. Diese Folge ist deshalb erstmalig in englisch.

Erick ist seit vielen Jahren in verschiedensten Führungspositionen bei der US Army für Themen rund um IT tätig. Seine vielfältigen Erfahrungen mit der Leitung von Teams und Gruppen haben zunächst zu Auftritten im army-eigenen Radio geführt. Aus diesen wurde sein erfolgreicher Podcast https://leadershipistricky.com.

Uli, Markus und ihr Gast Erick diskutieren die Art und Weise wie heute erfolgreiche Führung aussehen sollte. „Menschen kündigen keinen Firmen – sie kündigen ihren Vorgesetzten.“ Erick plädiert deshalb für eine Kultur des „Servant Leadership“, also des dienenden Führens im Gegensatz zum traditionell beherrschenden Führen. Mit zahlreichen Beispielen aus seinem eigenen Werdegang zeigt er dabei auch, wie Karriere selbst gestaltet werden kann: „If you don‘t live your purpose, you‘re living someone else’s purpose!“

Herzlichen Dank an Christian Koesling, Global VP Defense, Vodafone!

Euer Feedback zur Folge und Vorschläge für Themen und Gäst:innen sind sehr willkommen! Vernetzt euch und diskutiert mit:

Mitwirkende – Hosts: Ulrich Irnich & Markus Kuckertz // Produktion: Daniel Sprügel & Sören Wahlers, Maniac Studios (https://maniacstudios.com) // Redaktion: Marcus Pawlik // Kommunikation & Community: Anna-Lena Sodies // Team behind the team: Sonja Uller & Stephanie Nguyen Gia © Digital Pacemaker Podcast 2022

Zusammenfassung

In this episode of the Digital Pacemaker Podcast, my co-host Uli Irnig and I sit down with Eric Ocasio, the Director of Programs, Policy, and Projects at the U.S. Army in Europe. We explore the intricacies of leadership, drawing from Eric’s experiences in the military and his insights into servant leadership. Given the unique setting on an airbase in Wiesbaden, we switch to English for this edition, allowing Eric to share his captivating journey with a broader audience.

Eric details his career trajectory, shaped by a strong foundation in IT and a passion for leadership that led him to co-host a podcast titled “Leadership is Tricky.” This platform allows him to discuss the complexities of leadership with various guests and emphasizes that there is no one-size-fits-all approach. With over two decades of experience, Eric reinforces that effective leadership is a lifelong journey filled with continuous learning and adaptation.

As we dive into our discussion, Eric shares how personal connections form the core of servant leadership. His philosophy revolves around the belief that leaders should act as enablers for their teams—ensuring that their team members feel supported, valued, and understood. This approach is particularly important in today’s fast-evolving workplaces where empathy and connection can significantly impact morale and productivity.

Uli also contributes insights from his leadership experience, drawing parallels between their leadership philosophies. We address the challenges leaders face, particularly in times of significant change, such as during the COVID-19 pandemic. Both Eric and Uli highlight that effective remote leadership requires creating structured channels for communication, understanding individual team dynamics, and combatting isolation. Their discussions underscore how leadership styles must evolve to promote trust and motivation, especially in hybrid work environments.

Throughout the conversation, we touch on the real-world implications of leading diverse teams, navigating resistance to change, and fostering a culture of growth and resilience. Eric recounts lessons learned from both positive and negative experiences, emphasizing the value of mentorship and self-awareness in developing leadership skills.

As we wrap up, Eric leaves a lasting message on the importance of living one’s purpose. His advice to future leaders—”Live your purpose, or you’ll always live someone else’s purpose”—serves as a powerful reminder to align personal values with professional aspirations. Our discussion not only encapsulates the essence of effective leadership but also fosters a deeper understanding of the evolving dynamics within organizations today.

Transkript

Music:[0:00] Music

Speaker0:[0:18] Herzlich willkommen zum Digital Pacemaker Podcast mit euren Gastgebern Uli Irnig und mit mir Markus Kuckertz. Heute bist du genau richtig bei uns, wenn du etwas über das Thema Leadership erfahren möchtest. Wir haben Eric Ocasio getroffen von der US Army und haben mit ihm live in Wiesbaden einen Podcast aufgenommen. Deswegen sprechen wir auch auf Englisch ausnahmsweise. Der Eric verrät uns etwas über seine Sicht auf das Thema Leadership und über seine Karriere. Deshalb bleibt auf jeden Fall dran und abonniert uns natürlich auf Apple Podcasts, Spotify und überall dort, wo es deine Podcasts gibt. Der Eric hat auch einen Podcast, der heißt Leadership is Tricky. Auch da gilt, hört mal rein und lasst uns und dem Eric gerne Feedback da. Und jetzt wünsche ich euch viel Spaß mit der Folge. We are very honored actually to welcome you, Eric. Eric Ocasio, who is Director Programs, Policy and Projects at the US Army in Europe. Yeah, welcome, Eric.

Speaker1:[1:15] Ah, thank you guys for coordinating this and inviting me. It’s a good time to be here. So thank you for having me.

Speaker0:[1:22] Yeah, it’s very cool to have you, actually. It’s very new for us. I mean, we are sitting here at the airbase in a room. Let’s start, actually, with an introduction of you. I mean, you have the podcast, Leadership is Tricky, which is quite interesting. It’s really focused on leadership, very interesting. Maybe you tell us something about you. What’s your background? What’s your career? What’s your CV? Why did you do the podcast? Maybe that’s something we’ll come back later to, but yeah.

Speaker1:[1:42] Yeah, so I’ll start the important stuff. So I’m a father of two girls and a husband of, you know, my wife being German. So we have that connection here. Right. Yeah. So I grew up in IT in the army and then I got out in 2005 and been doing IT as a government civilian. So, yeah, worked my way to the top of my career ladder in IT, which is pays the bills. Right. So the government and the army job pays for me to play golf. Right.

Speaker1:[2:13] No, it’s very fascinating because we have different challenges all of the time. But on the side. Right. So back in 2019, we started the Leadership is Tricky podcast. Myself and Stephen Alec, who is my co-host, he’s currently in the States. Right. So he’s in San Antonio. So we make it work using a digital and Internet platform. So but the idea behind leadership is tricky is because leadership is exactly that. It’s tricky. Right. There is no one size fit all. So anyone out there that thinks that leadership is something that they’re going to figure out in a day, they’re not. It takes a lifetime for you to become a good leader. And there’s many books, podcasts. We’re just one of many. But we try to differentiate ourselves from everybody else by saying that we’re going to share our experiences. And then the people that we bring on, they’re at different phases in their life, whether they’re a CIO, CEO of a startup, you know, or a large company or just someone that’s just trying to figure it out. You know, we try to invite them in.

Speaker1:[3:16] So we started in 2019 to do just that. We set off to just share experiences across the globe. You know, I’m a Harvard senior executive fellow as well. I went to Harvard and got my public leadership certificate back by some credentials. I’ve invested in the activity of leadership and I’m very passionate about it. So that’s a little bit about me. Right. So I’ve been doing this for 22 years at different levels with different types of people. I pride myself on adaptive leadership. Right. So all the squishy stuff behind leadership, as well as servant leadership. And that’s kind of my leadership style. No, I’m looking forward to this discussion today because I know we’re going to talk about leadership. And yeah, this is going to be a good time.

Speaker0:[3:58] Glad to have you in our Digital Basemaker podcast. And of course, I would also like to say hello to my co-host, Uli Oernig. What’s your impression? I mean, we did a short walk today around the base here. So what was your impression? What’s the atmosphere?

Speaker2:[4:13] Oh, it’s unbelievable. It feels like a bit entering the U.S. I was there in April in Seattle, right? And it feels like being in the U.S. But it’s impressive from the buildings and also from the size, having so many people. Yeah, it’s like our campus, so many people in and living here and staying in Germany. And it’s also great, Eric, that we are doing that here because we feel very honored. You can feel also a bit, let’s say, safety, because I think military also demonstrate a kind of safety right in the world we are living and it’s it’s also interesting to see the challenges we are all having in that situation and i’m therefore very thankful to be here

Speaker0:[4:53] Great and i mean we also want to talk about leadership of course eric just mentioned a lot of topics that we want to touch during this episode but before actually we come to the topic let’s talk about why actually are we podcasting that’s a very interesting question and eric i would like to ask you, why did you start? Leadership is tricky. What’s the motivation behind it? And what’s the promise you have for yourself?

Speaker1:[5:17] I’m going to take it back just a little bit further before I started. I was stationed in Belgium. So I was a deputy commander out in Belgium. I struck a partnership with the Armed Forces Network. That’s our radio station for all of Europe. I would go on once a week to talk about what are we doing, right? And I remember our very first segment, I was extremely excited, nervous, and I bombed, right? It was, you know, couldn’t get the words out. But over time, right, I got very comfortable with talking on the radio and I loved reaching a broad audience and then getting the feedback, right? The feedback is, it’s intoxicating sometimes, right? Because people are like, oh, I really loved your topic. I want you to talk about this some more. So I got my own hour, right, to talk about leadership, what we were doing as an organization. There was a barrier to entry at that point because I had to go to the studio,

Speaker1:[6:10] You know, drive 30 minutes, prep, get in the studio, do my segment, you know, an hour for 18 minutes of airtime. And then you fast forward a little bit. A buddy of mine, Alan Strunk, we started the Federal Workers Podcast. And what that was, was talking about how do we help junior folks get to where we’re at in this federal government, right? Because it was kind of elusive for some people, but it was just all about sharing that information, right? And then we were getting requests for more and more leadership topics. So then that’s where Leadership is Tricky came in. So my buddy of mine, Stephen, and I would have countless hours of talking about leadership just amongst ourselves. and we’re like, hey, let’s share this, right? So we were in a car in the United Kingdom. I’m on the wrong side of the road trying to focus and we’re talking and talking. We decided let’s just record it, you know? And so we recorded it. We posted it on Podbean. The quality was terrible.

Speaker1:[7:12] The topic was just, you know, random, but we got good feedback and we decided let’s formalize this. So 1 December of 2019, let’s make this a thing. So, you know, we started marketing it out there and we worked through the platform, but we started podcasting because we want to share, you know, we want to share our thoughts, our experiences with a greater audience and hopefully someone gets something from it. So after our first few episodes, you know, we’re just pushing it out through LinkedIn or Facebook. You know, we were in 52 countries fairly quickly. We were, you know, climbing up the ladder on Apple podcasts. And I make this joke all the time on each episode. It’s because we’re in the top 100 in Peru. Right. And I’m like, you know, what’s going on in Peru? Why? It’s so weird. But it’s what it is today. Right. We’re in the top 100 in Peru and the top 200 on Apple Podcasts right now in our space. And our space is self-improvement and training. So, yeah, we started it as, you know, kind of an evolution of where we wanted to go. And, you know, just being someone that loves the activity of leadership, I just love the fact that I can share it with a broader audience. So that’s kind of why it was kind of long winded to get there. But yeah, that’s that’s why we started just because I love I love I love the activity of leadership.

Speaker0:[8:38] So it’s some constant effort that you had to put in it to deliver the podcast, Uli. And that actually reminds me, I mean, we just started at the beginning of the year in March with our episodes. I mean, this is kind of number 14 or number 15. So we have a long way to go to reach the same level that you already have. So what was our motivation, actually?

Speaker2:[8:56] We started our podcast, you know, also by accident, I would say, right? To say, well, we have to shift gears, especially if we look to the pace of the digital world outside. people are overwhelmed with all the topics which are coming up. We want to be a bit more taking the mystery out of it and giving a wider audience the view of what is happening outside and therefore also inviting young people who are seeing this speed of innovation which is happening at the moment, let’s say some ideas what are happening there and also orientation on that one. Of course, to be very honest, we also want to attract other people to us with that Because we want to make them a bit fan and also giving, let’s say, a bit out of our company culture into the podcast, even if we invite people around which are not with Vodafone, which is a good thing. Because I’m a big fan of outside-in views, right? You cannot be smarter if you’re just thinking about your own things. You have to change perspective. I still remember the first podcast. us we talk about purpose and you know everything in our world which we are in today starts with a purpose a podcast starts with a purpose your work starts with a purpose if you don’t have a purpose what you’re doing you cannot be good and that’s something what what our motivation to start that yeah

Speaker1:[10:19] I just want to interject purpose right so one of my favorite sayings in in the whole world and i have it in my book that i walk around i look at it every day so i say that If you don’t live your purpose, you’ll always live someone else’s purpose, right? So, you know, we wake up every day, we go out and we do things, right? But are we doing it to meet our end state and our goals against our values? So I think purpose is extremely important, especially as we love our lives. We only have one shot at it, right? So if you’re not living your purpose, you’re always going to live someone else’s purpose.

Speaker0:[10:55] And it’s very interesting, actually, and it’s the same maybe that we deliver. I listened to some episodes of Leadership is Tricky and it’s really like a glance behind the curtain because these conversations in the past usually, I mean, you had them live, but actually having the opportunity to listen to experienced leaders for, I mean, 60 minutes or something, that’s really what is so attractive to tune in. And I mean, you just mentioned the purpose. That’s one of the maybe core topics we want to talk about today. So we’d like to talk about servant leadership and what it means for your career and what it is and what it is not. And what I like to bring up for our audience today is actually some experiences about it. Maybe not just a theory. Maybe, I mean, you both have a very impressive career and maybe we can learn some pragmatic examples from that. And yeah, the thing is, I mean, you just mentioned the purpose and that’s maybe where we start. The question would be, what does servant leadership mean for you? What’s the characteristic or maybe also what is it not?

Speaker1:[11:57] You know, definitions and definition. Right. But for me, it’s about having that meaningful connection with those that you’re in, you know, under your care. Right. So as leaders, if you are exercising that activity, right, you have to have high empathy, high understanding, accountability, and you have to breed a culture of trust. You could do that by saying that everyone works for you as a leader, right? Well, no, people work for you because you have a position of authority, right? But people want to work for you if you are a servant leader, because the way I view it and the way I talk to my employees is I’m here to work for you. So my question to them every day is, what can I do for you? I’m available for you, whether it’s professional or if you have something personal.

Speaker1:[12:42] And I will say that, and it’s probably going to sound bad when I say it, but I tell folks a lot that I don’t really care about the work because the work’s always going to get done and work is infinite. What I care about is understanding what are those motivations and triggers that either have people at a high peak of performance or a low peak of performance. And typically it’s things that are happening outside of work. So I like to have the dialogue. I like to be that servant leader that’s working for them, with them, alongside them, rather them working for me.

Speaker1:[13:12] Right. So, you know, people want to come to work because we spend so much time there. Right. And feel as though that the people that are working alongside, they can trust that their leaders are empathetic, that they care about their wellbeing. Right. And kind of their mental state. Right. Because after COVID, you know, we’ve had to flip our model on what servant leadership actually means. Right. Because, you know, we were at home for two years and we’ve grown accustomed to not dealing with people. We’ve grown accustomed to reconnecting with our families. And now we’re going back into a workplace that you want to know that people care about you and care about how you’re transitioning, right? And what that transition cost looks like. So wrapping all of that up, I think it’s about having that honesty, that empathy, that accountability, and that trust. And I learned that from a friend of mine, Michelle Boulos, who’s a CEO for a pretty large company. That was kind of her culture statement. And I’ve always held on to that. And I’m trying to replicate that right through shared experience. And those that are under my care is that I work for you. I’m here for you. And I care about that adaptive piece. How do I motivate, inspire and mobilize you to get after problem sets rather than directing? Right. So that’s kind of the way I view servant leadership in a nutshell.

Speaker2:[14:32] People are not leaving companies, people are leaving because of their boss. Therefore, I think the world has turned. You know, I’ve grown up where there’s still this kind of bossing, where this leadership style was, let’s say, common. But for me, also in that time already, and I worked seven years for General Electrics, and that’s one of the famous companies who built very much on trust, humanity. They call it the four E’s, right? Energy, energize, edge, and execute. That means you cannot energy other people if you don’t have energy. As a servant leader, you have to generate energy.

Speaker2:[15:09] People have to feel they are trusted, they are respected, they feel home. Home in quotation marks, right? The company is not our home, but they feel like home. If you get that, they are also energized. And then it’s all about execution and how you do such kind of things, because at the end of the day, you want to achieve a mission. But this kind of self-motivation, this kind of getting your order yourself, right, that’s the important piece in serving leader. And I’m there, if there are roadblocks, to get them away, right? Roadblocks, they cannot solve. I’m there to serve that they get away, get them into the flow. And if you see that and you see the feedback from people, you see that in the eyes, right? You see how the eyes are great and flunking and inspiring. That’s for me a serving leader. And it’s sometimes also, I would say, challenging for yourself because you have to take your ego away. You have to take away, you know, the decision and you know what to do, but you have to take yourself away. That sometimes means also some discipline. But the payback you’re getting is phenomenally higher.

Speaker0:[16:21] And certain leadership is something, it seems to be quite new, but it isn’t actually. I think it’s not a new concept. It’s something that’s just maybe in terms of marketing, currently very, very good framed. And Eric, you told us in the conversation we had before the podcast that you had the chance to be a very young leader, that you had the opportunity in your early 20s to be a leader. And what did you experience? How did leadership change over that time since your first leadership position, maybe not just over time, also in your experience?

Speaker1:[16:50] Yeah. So I would say probably early in my career, I didn’t know what is to be a leader. Especially, you know, in my early 20s, I was climbing the ladder so fast that I was just trying to get through. Right. I was just trying to get things done. And I would do a lot of things myself. Right. Burning myself out, not trusting my people. I think that it comes with time and maturity that you start to understand that you need others to be successful.

Speaker1:[17:14] Right. So I might have been successful on one path. Right. Me getting promoted and me getting to the top of my career path. But then I’m also leaving other people behind, right? And not creating a pathway for them. Some of the things that I learned, though, is one is to start trusting people, start to understand what the skill sets are around me and how do I leverage those. And then it took me to go to advanced leadership schools, right? So I went to Center for Creative Leadership. I got mentorship from others that have already done it. And that’s extremely important. So anyone listening out there, get mentors, right? But understand what it is you need then to mentor you on and what your gaps are, which takes self-awareness.

Speaker1:[17:54] Luckily for me, I was self-aware to know that I had blind spots and gaps to find the right mentors and leaders, even if they had a shelf life. Right. So I might have a mentor for a year because they’ve reached the capacity in which they can share with me. And then you start to look for other mentors to get you where you need to go in different areas. Right. So for me, at such a young age, I needed a mentor, not in my technical space, but also the professional space, as well as how to become a man. Right. Because I’m a young man with a lot of distractions that has, you know, new wife or new baby. Right. How do I deal with those things while still trying to be effective in the other lanes? Right. So what I found is leadership is an activity that takes an entire lifetime to master. But you have to have the right people around you or seek out the right people to help you get to where it is you feel that you need to go. And I think that’s what I learned probably my early 30s.

Speaker1:[18:56] So, you know, mid-20s to my early 30s, I struggled because I was just trying to climb, climb, climb because I wanted more money. I wanted more authority. I wanted perceived power. But you realize how much power you don’t have when you don’t have the trust of the people around you, right? So, yeah, I think that’s what I found that I was the youngest in my sphere of influence at the table as I got promoted to the top. But then I’m looking around and there’s no one behind me, right? Right. So those are the things that I learned that how do I create pathways for others around me while still trying to to grow myself. Right. And yeah, that’s it’s still a learning process today as things change. Right. Because, you know, you were talking about the way people work in this now digital age and how things are accelerated. And I’m a millennial, an older millennial, but I am a millennial and I view things different than, you know, our older, more seasoned counterparts. I see things as still more traditional in what we view it, and now more cutting edge in how do we accelerate the way we work and the conditions in which we work in. But hopefully that answers your question. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker2:[20:08] And it resonates a lot with me. I’m a baby boomer, so a bit more gray hair. You don’t see that, but it’s a fact. I would say my luck in life was that I had always bosses who promote me. They tried to challenge me all the way. In that kind of, let’s say having this kind of freedom, there was always the question, what is your mission you are in, right? And my formula, especially for that, was taking an action which is impossible. Having that kind of action, and you know, that gets a lot of energy from me because if there is something impossible and everybody tells you it’s impossible, it’s impossible, that generates a lot of energy inside of me, right? And then, as you explained, try to find people who follow us. It’s not command and control. It’s really to inject this idea. It’s possible. Because most of the barriers we’re having are in our head. We are not possible to do that. It’s in our head. And everybody who rides roller coaster or jumps from a bridge or something like that knows what this kind of blockers are. And we have them. And everybody else has different blockers, right? I call that elephant ropes, where in India, the young elephants are trained that this small rope hinders them to go away, right? Everybody of us has this kind of rope inside. And I think for leaders, it’s important to understand where this rope is and how we inspire people.

Speaker2:[21:36] To break that kind of rope and also accept where ropes are right because you cannot break everything right and but knowing that that’s already a big benefit and then really inspiring people to get the impossible done and sometimes of course this is also the feeling that you get fired if it fails right but if you achieve such kind of things it’s glorious it’s really close

Speaker0:[22:01] It’s very interesting to hear how you both evolved as a leader, maybe a bit more related to practice. If you think about servant leadership, do you have examples where it worked quite well? And the more interesting thing for our leaders is maybe do we have examples where we can see the limits, where it does not work from your leadership experience?

Speaker1:[22:19] Yeah, so I think that you have maybe 5% of your workforce that are early adopters. Like no matter what you do, they trust you and they’re going to go out there with you, right? And then then you have the rest of the folks that are kind of like sitting on the fence. It’s probably like 95 or 90 percent of your workforce that are just waiting to see what what everyone else does. And then you have the resistors. Right. And and I would say I went into a job once. And this is the more negative aspect of leadership. I went into a job once where I came in to be the director and I was younger than everyone on the staff.

Speaker1:[22:57] Everyone else was older than me. And I had a small population of the resistors that were probably toxic. They would spread that toxicity around the organization because they were a lot older than me, a lot senior, maybe 20, 30 years my senior. And they didn’t feel that I could provide value to them as a young person, right? So the ageism went into play. And I probably didn’t handle it very well because I wanted to come in with a hammer and not try to understand what it was, right? To your point, what is their biggest fear, right? And what I found over time, and even through that experience is change is hard, right? For everyone and anyone. Change doesn’t mean that they’re scared of what’s to come. They’re scared of the loss, right? And that’s what you’re fighting is the loss of whether it’s control, process, right? Their way of life. They might have a fear of getting fired because we’re challenging them with the impossible. So those are the things that from a leadership perspective, I think that it didn’t work very well for me because I came in with the hammer instead of trying to understand their point of view and where they’re at in their careers, right? Why did I threaten them as such a young person? Because I was coming in with new, maybe innovative ideas that was going to maybe push them out of a job or redefine their job because I’ve put a more efficient process in place, right? So innovation in technology

Speaker1:[24:26] Creates new ways of doing work or eliminates people’s jobs. Right. So I think there was that fear. But then on the other side, like the current situation that I’m in now, I came in behind a person that was in a position of authority that maybe was a lot different than I was. Right. He was more of the hammer and I was more of the, you know, come in. What ails you, my child? Like, more coddling, more soft.

Speaker1:[24:56] And that resonated with that workforce because they didn’t have that before. So they found that I came in and I trusted them and showed them a different way of thinking, different methodology. And then eventually I just took over everything. And now we have a pretty good culture. And that’s because I take time to have what we call professional dialogues, where we sit down for 20 minutes and I ask them, what are those competencies you feel you have? You know, what am I not doing for you? Where can I fill in your gaps? But I do that on an individual basis, right? So that way I can have that one-on-one meaningful connection with that person. And then it helps me manage the totality of the workforce by having that dialogue. But I wouldn’t have gotten here if I wouldn’t have had that bad experience up front, right? Because I didn’t do that and I lost the workforce. And some people quit. We fired some people. We moved some people. Because I didn’t know how to handle that with the stick. So now I know that I need to balance between the carrot and the stick, right? And having those soft competencies to really understand the workforce. So those are two kind of practical things. One is came in not listening and not understanding to now I listen and I understand and then react to that.

Speaker0:[26:13] Willie, what’s your experience with servant leadership?

Speaker2:[26:16] Servant leadership, to be very honest, especially if you’re running into change, there is always this fear, as you mentioned, Eric, of losing something. And there is only a small population who see the chance of winning something. And I think we as a leader, we have to build this kind of picture of what is the winning piece into that, right? And I know exactly because we are really in a crisis, right? And we need to automate the service centers, right? Bringing in robots, the first chatbots, all kinds of things, right? And, and you know it already in the newspaper, right?

Speaker2:[26:53] Everybody will lose their job and everybody will be out of the business and all kinds of things, right? And. We started with the agents, right, bringing them into the technology, train the algorithm, and give a perspective. What is changing, really? We are using them as advocates to explain what’s happening. And if you look to the total popularity, we didn’t fire. We automate a lot of the processes. We shift some competences from their former roles and other roles, which is more, let’s say, giving deeper customer services. And of course that means some change and also some training but the biggest let’s say elephant rope i lose my job was gone and you know a lot of this kind of blocking issues is understanding and perspective because everybody has a i would say a truth in this head in her head which is in some cases the same in some cases totally different but to understand what’s different That’s the important thing, and that has a lot to do with listening,

Speaker2:[27:56] Understanding, asking questions, seeing really where this blocking issue is, and of course, to be very serious, and I know as a young manager, I was confronted with closing a department, right? And, you know, this is not a funny piece, right? Because you see a lot of people losing their job, taking the time, being very transparent with the decision the company has took. And, you know, you as a leader has to take, let’s say, this kind of leadership, giving people, let’s say, room to explain and also giving them the understanding and fairness behind that and helping them to survive going forward. Because also if a job ends, that’s not the end of the world. And how we can help also as a leader that they are qualified for the next role. I know very exactly this kind of moment. And these are experiences which sticks in your head. And that trains me to say we have always accountable for our people and we have to give them all fairness, also in difficult times, to be transparent and help them to understand and giving them perspective.

Speaker1:[29:06] Yeah, I think you hit on a good point, right? So people under your care, right? A lot of people come in, they take a job, they’re qualified for that job and we hire them. The time between them and the time that they leave, right? What are we doing as leaders to ensure that they’re more marketable than they came into the organization, right? So it’s training, understanding their skills gaps and investing in them while they’re there. And I’m very big on that is investing in the workforce while they’re there. And if they leave, it’s okay. it’s not the end of the world and that if we have to close a department or a section or they have to lose their job well we’ve set them up for success because while they were under their care we invested in them it’s like a plant absolutely

Speaker2:[29:47] Yeah and I think this kind of coaching and mentoring also in that next step that’s one part of our leadership style right and the other thing is especially as you said I like to work with a talent two years. And if the value of that talent is that big, if it is promotion inside the company, outside of the company or whatever, I feel very, very satisfied when people are moving on with the next step in their career, in their role and in their how they build up their experiences.

Speaker1:[30:20] Yeah, I think a part of that, too, plays into our ego. Yeah. Right. I feel great when someone leaves and they say they got promoted. I had an employee of mine. And I brought them to two separate locations. And I told them, I was like, the next step for you is to go get promoted. So that’s what we’re going to work on for the next year. And I knew I only had them for a year. So I said, the goal is to get you promoted and out of here in a year. And it happened. And, you know, and a lot of people are like, oh, my God, you’re going to lose this talent. There’s more talent out there. But it plays to your ego to say, you know, we set off to go do this and you did it. And it feels so good as a leader to see them go out and flourish. Because who knows, maybe when I’m close to retirement, I might need a job. Absolutely. There are people outside.

Speaker0:[31:06] Always be twice. So one recent shift in leadership is actually COVID. So what came additionally and what was new is actually, yeah, this is kind of remote leadership. And the question, okay, how do you motivate people? How do you reach them if they are not present in the office, if you don’t run into them every day or at least every week? So what’s your experience? How did leadership change? And what do you think needs to change with leaders?

Speaker2:[31:36] Let me start with that, because, you know, we were very focused on getting everyone in the home office, right? Making the impossible possible, because that was also a moment where everybody said before that’s not possible, but we did it. Being in a home office, making that kind of connection means also for leaders, plan time right to make this kind of connection, that’s number one. Number two is because the efficiency increase, so that means people are getting their diary full right, getting more work because they don’t have to drive, they fill it up with additional meetings.

Speaker2:[32:13] At some point, we brought in, let’s say, this kind of be your kind of yourself, because if you are exhorted, you cannot be good at your work, right? And therefore, we injected this kind of digital detox trainings, right, to work out. So starting a meeting, a big virtual conference with a workout,

Speaker2:[32:34] Breaking it, doing again a workout to refresh minds. Because what I experienced, if you’re watching whole day on your TV screen, on your monitor, right, you got your neck, it’s getting hard, right, all your muscles are getting a bit lazy, and refreshing that, giving back a presence. That’s what we injected, number one. Number two is bringing in such kind of coffee breaks, virtual coffees, a coffee walk, such kind of launch breakers to make sure that we keep that kind of connection. That worked pretty good. But, and here is the downside, when people are in the home office, they are introvert, right? They are not shouting up, I’m at my limit and all kind of things. So you need to inject some sensors, which gives you the view where we have a serious problem of that people are really isolated, are close to a burnout or whatever, right? Because you don’t see them. You just see the screen, right? and in the screen, you don’t see that. And that’s something that was, from my perspective, the hardest piece, to have really the centers outside to see what’s happening with really our people.

Speaker1:[33:47] One was, I think we were prepared, especially from a leadership perspective, is because I knew the people and I knew who were already the introverts at work versus the extroverts. And as we transitioned to the digital space with COVID, those extroverts were always online, engaging through chat, you know, video. So one of the things that I would do is I would call the introverts directly,

Speaker1:[34:09] You know, periodically, you know, maybe one, two times a week just to see, are you OK? And then when we would have the larger sessions on Fridays, and then you could kind of see through some of the body language, you know, how they were doing. But I would say that one of the things that showed me is that people worked harder in home office. So there’s studies out there. There’s a Harvard study that says an eight and a half hour day, you’re going to get five and a half hours of productivity. Right. And sometimes even less when you’re in the workspace because of the water cooler talks. People take a little longer lunch. Right. We’re stopping at the cubicle to talk. And I see it at my doorstep. You stop for, hey, you got a quick second, 45-minute discussion. You didn’t get that during COVID, right? You got a lot of people are getting up early. They don’t have a commute, so they log on. Then they’re on until 7.30, right? Because they’re like, oh, let me just answer that one quick email. And then an hour later, they’re still on the box. So one of the things I was trying to promote through that is, one, how do I stay connected, even virtually? How do I force people to get offline, right? Like no meetings start before nine. And then how do we inject little things to stay connected as a group? And then now as people are coming back in the office, right, how do I still give them the flexibility and trust, right, to still telework when they need to, whether it’s situational, ad hoc,

Speaker1:[35:32] You know, if they got to take care of their families, they got to take care of some personal things, knowing that I’m going to get five and a half hours of productivity. You just got to resign the fact to that. Yeah. And then just be very, you know, delicate, but trying to bring people back from COVID, which is the next challenge, right, for leaders is how do you start to bring people back into the spaces that we’re paying a lot of money to maintain and utilities and all of these things, right? And how do you have that balance? So I think that’s the next challenge for us is even with all of the digital tools, How do we still integrate the digital tools while still giving them flexibility to come in and out of the workforce as needed for them to be productive?

Speaker2:[36:15] But you see also that there are different, I would say, preferences of people, right? Staying five days in the office or no days in the office, right? We start to balance that a bit. And the biggest challenge what we see at the moment is how do we scope with hybrids, right? So that you have still the staff on site and the staff offline, right? So remotely. And how do we connect that? And how do we place rules into that? So procedural ceremonies that everybody can follow this kind of discussion, because if you have 10 people in a room and two people remotely connected, that’s horrible for the two people remotely connected. And therefore, we injected such kind of if we are in such kind of meetings, everybody connects to the laptop into the meeting so that everybody has the same rules.

Speaker1:[37:07] Yeah, just yesterday we had a hybrid meeting and I forgot there was two people online because I was displaying a product. We were all in the room and then a voice came out of nowhere. It scared me a little bit. I’m like, whoa, who’s that? And then I literally forgot they were even online because I didn’t have the screen right in front of me. Yeah. And then I don’t even know if they were paying attention or listening. But, yeah, I fully agree. It’s either we have the same conditions, right, whether even if we’re all in the office, we come in virtually or we’re all there physically. Because the hybrid approach is kind of challenging, really tricky, right? Yeah.

Speaker0:[37:43] Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences to both of you. And to wrap it up, one thing maybe you take away from this discussion?

Speaker1:[37:49] I would probably say the thing that I’m taking away from this podcast discussion is my challenges aren’t unique. We are all in kind of the same boat. You know, it’s refreshing to hear that there’s others that are invested in leadership, you know, that I don’t feel like I’m alone, right? Now, so that’s that’s probably what I’m going to take away from this conversation is that I’m kind of motivated and inspired that, you know, I’m not alone in this and that we’re having this discussion and that we’re sharing it with everyone. So, yeah, thanks.

Speaker2:[38:19] For me, it’s really, really, really great, Eric, having this podcast together with you, because especially on leadership, I think sharing is caring, right? And there are so many different situations in that, let’s say, VUCA world outside, right? There’s fast changing things where we just can learn from each other. That motivates me. And you’re not alone. Absolutely.

Speaker1:[38:43] No, and it’s great to have you guys come all the way out here to share this time with each other, you know? So I just want to say thank you guys for, one, having me on the podcast. So maybe next time it’s leadership is tricky, you know, but but also coming out to the base. Right. And sharing this time with us. You know, Vodafone is a great partner of the U.S. Army. But, you know, now we’ve got a friendship.

Speaker0:[39:05] And we have a very small tradition at the Digital Pacemaker podcast. This is actually the last question. So imagine you go back to university and yeah, in front of the university, there would be a wall, like something where you put some texts on it and imagine students are going in and out and they look every time they go in and out to that wall and you have the opportunity to write something on that wall which is a recommendation for the careers which comes from your experiences. What would that be?

Speaker1:[39:34] So I’m going to start with the statement that I said when we started. Live your purpose or you’ll always live someone else’s purpose. Everything in your life should be purpose-driven. And so even if it was young Eric walking in and see that wall, if I would have known that back then, a lot of the things that I’ve probably done in my life that didn’t matter and some of the relationships that didn’t matter, probably wouldn’t have happened. Maybe I would have gotten to this place a little bit sooner, but that’s probably what I would leave them with is that statement.

Speaker0:[40:02] Thanks a lot, Eric. Thanks, Uli.

Speaker2:[40:04] Thank you.

Speaker0:[40:04] And yeah, thanks for having us here in Erdenheim. And I think it’s a good start and we’d love to come to Leadership is Tricky and to share some experience from the Vodafone world maybe. And yeah, thanks a lot.

Speaker1:[40:15] Yeah, perfect.

Speaker2:[40:16] Thank you, Eric.

 

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